while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.
she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.
anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .
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“I find it incredible that in a sue-for-anything country like the US that this would play out.”
Simon,
The world of legalism and medicine are systems. Systems can be worked. This is what Watchtower does. It has learned these systems and works them to the hilt.
A primary tool it uses with pediatric patients is to coach them to give impression of being little adults. It’s a god-damned crying shame. But it happens.
Marvin Shilmer
while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.
she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.
anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .
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“I see as much apathy in ex-JWs who fail to admit any responsibility for having once supported the WTBTS, being paralyzed and unable to claim the moral high-ground in a manner that's likely to be effective in breaking the cycle, instead of merely being content to engage in ineffective hyperbole and repeating, "someone should DO something!" without having any actual useful suggestions in order to break the destructive cycle.”
Adamah,
That notion resonates with me. It shames me that in years long gone by I didn’t do more than I did, and that I didn’t make it my business to learn more about what was happening and why more aggressively than I did.
I also agree that engaging in “Someone should do something!” without doing something ourselves is a useless waste of everyone’s time.
Understanding Watchtower’s blood doctrine is a tall order for the average person. If the subject is important to us, and if we think it should either be eradicated or otherwise overcome then failing to spend the necessary time and resources to understand this monster is nothing but an excuse. Either we do it or we don’t. That’s the personal choice each has.
Then it’s a matter of putting our resources where our mouth is.
Marvin Shilmer
while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.
she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.
anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .
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“An ad hominem is an ad hominem…”
Adamah,
True.
But a skeptical opinion based on extrapersonal evidence is not ad hominem.
Ad hominem is an attempt to reject a view (or have it rejected) because of the person making it, usually involving something negative about the individual.
Guess what? That’s not what I did.
I rejected what you said of my statement because I did not assert as you claimed.
Learn about it.
The fact is that over and over again the Watchtower organization has attempted to use doctors by having parents and/or elders coach sick children to sound and act as little adults. Apparently you don’t like this being advertised.
Marvin Shilmer
while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.
she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.
anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .
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“Well lookie here? How quickly Marvin went to the OT ad hominems.”
Adamah,
Your slip’s showing again.
It’s not ad hominem to state skepticism based on evidence. What’s the evidence in your case? Reading something into my words that’s not there. And for what? For no apparent reason that makes any sense, unless…
It’s not about me. But you can’t refrain from making it about me. Right?
Marvin Shilmer
while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.
she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.
anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .
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“When you say stuff like that Marvin, I have to wonder....
“The "medical staff" has absolutely NO capability to declare anyone a "mature minor", since it's outside of their professional bounds as healthcare providers. The hospital has an obligation to seek out a ruling from a judge in court, which serves a role in society to provide a systems of checks and balances on behalf of the citizenry.”
Adamah,
When you say stuff like that Adamah I see the slip showing of a Watchtower apologist in disguise.
You cannot find what you do above in my statement without reading it into the text.
Saying I witnessed children being coached to convince medical staff they are a “mature minor” is not saying medical staff has capability to deem a minor as a “mature minor”.
Either you’re a Watchtower worshipper here in disguise or else your expertise is not what you claim. Otherwise you’d have to know that judges typically interview treating physicians to get their impression of a child’s overall level of comprehension and personal conviction. Guess what? This means coaching children to convince medical staff of maturity beyond years is part of the process of ultimately convincing a judge.
I don’t believe a word you say of yourself.
Marvin Shilmer
while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.
she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.
anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .
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I can only read the account above, and it’s a sad one for sure.
In my years I’ve seen plenty of sick children coaxed and coached by parents and congregation elders into being little “mature minors” in order to convince medical staff not to administer blood product forbidden by Watchtower teaching. It’s such a tragedy, not to mention a travesty.
The whole scenario makes Watchtower’s top leadership nothing short of bloodguilty mobsters in my book.
Marvin Shilmer
80+ branch davidian cult members died in waco, texas.
250,000+ #jehovahswitnesses have died refusing blood.
stop this #cult!
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“Major organ transplants, severe anemia, massive hemorrhage from trauma-all are being managed without exposing patients to blood's hazards. So even from a medical viewpoint the Witnesses' position cannot be dismissed.”— Gene Smalley (Research Staff, Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society), Health Progress, October 1989
With those words a Watchtower representative uses weasel word presentation to suggest better outcome treating conditions such as severe anemia and massive hemorrhage without blood transfusion medicine. It’s was a lie then and it’s a lie today.
Watchtower does not want people to have any means of estimating deaths among JWs because of abiding by its blood doctrine.
Marvin Shilmer
80+ branch davidian cult members died in waco, texas.
250,000+ #jehovahswitnesses have died refusing blood.
stop this #cult!
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“Really? You don't get that they say different things to different audiences?”
Simon,
You don’t read very well, do you.
Watchtower’s telling the same lie in medical journals that it’s telling Jehovah’s Witnesses, that ‘To say a person has died because of refusing blood is a misleading statement,’ and ‘It’s rarely, if ever, the case that a patient refused a blood transfusion and therefore died.’
“Sure, sharing information helps - but so does not allowing the insidious cancer of religion to be given oxygen wherever it doesn't need it.”
Then what I'm doing helps because I'm sharing information.
Oh, and I don't see anyone in this discussion pushing religion.
Marvin Shilmer
80+ branch davidian cult members died in waco, texas.
250,000+ #jehovahswitnesses have died refusing blood.
stop this #cult!
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“Sorry Marvin, I think your extrapolation is the sideshow.”
Simon,
I’m glad you have an opinion. So what?
“What do you think it will accomplish?”
I have no particular goal for sharing the information I share. I share what I do for sake of making more information available and more findable on issues that are important to me.
“One story about one real person raises more awareness but none will make any change.”
I’m glad you have an opinion. So what?
“What is the final objective? To have a government start ruling on religious belief? It's never going to happen.”
My only objective is to make information more widely available and easier to find on issues that are important to me. That’s it.
“What we can do though is kick religion every chance we get and make sure it's not allowed to take one inch more than is allowed. That means not encroaching into schools and government and staying squarely in people's homes and churches.”
That’s silly. Kicking religion?
Religion is a result of society tolerating ignorance. Kicking religion is wasting time. Sharing verifiable information helps educate. Education is the antidote to ignorance.
“I find it kind of ironic that not so long ago you seemed to be arguing *against* this.”
I’ve never argued against education.
And, frankly, your opinion of what I mean by things I write is not very compelling. My experience is that often you fail to read critical pieces of information and more often than not you read what you want to see into what a person’s written if you don’t like their politics. But that’s just my opinion.
Marvin Shilmer
80+ branch davidian cult members died in waco, texas.
250,000+ #jehovahswitnesses have died refusing blood.
stop this #cult!
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“Normally they are held up as examples of extreme faith. They have even had WatchTower articles about them 'glorifying' their steadfast choice.”
Simon,
I disagree with that assessment. In medical journal article upon medical journal article Watchtower has relentlessly had its representatives hammer home a notion that it’s difficult to say when a patient died from lack of blood.
For consumption in the JW community Watchtower goes so far as to quote physicians out of context to drive home a point that blood refusal is not a substantial factor of mortality among JWs.
From Watchtower’s NO BLOOD--Medicine Meets the Challenge video, 2001:
- “Dr. Aryeh Shander: "To say that one has died because of refusal of blood, I think, is a very general, misleading statement."
- "Dr. Peter Carmel: "It's rarely, if ever, the case that a patient refused a blood transfusion and therefore died."
This kind of downplaying lessens the opportunity for JWs to understand what is happening when members die in the presence of a blood refusal.
Only when the reason for a given death is undeniably the result of refusing blood is a death held up as an example of faith. They do this in these cases because they have no other choice. So they use the event to whip up a faith-based enthusiasm.
Marvin Shilmer
